Curse

mafia cyborg · Apr 08, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

1v1 hero battles has potential ....but the way its implemnted its not fun at all.
all these Shrines......basically force you to play either D or A.....often leavin your heroes holdin a shrine.....and then its all about tedious runnin up and down.
also shrines seem too distant one to the other......and they fly off the radar ( u cant see them on minimap)....i wanted to send an hero to a chokepoint to slow down the runner .....but the chokepoint was out of my minimap so i couldnt flag him there.
why not have different maps? some with shrines (for runners) and some without(just fight build vs build)......or some other idea......but this shrine run dont seem much fun to me.(especially for the casual player).
on another note.....GW is not really suited for hero battles.......cos of the view (zoomin out should get u 90 degrees on top to optimize screen space) and cos of the way heroes are controlled(flags)......look at wc3 how heroes should be controlled and what kinda view u need.

Does-it-Matter · Apr 09, 2007, 12:23 AM // 00:23

It comes down to playing the arena the way it is meant to be played, not expecting it to be "like something else."

It's not a game about "team vs team, direct combat." There is a reason we're given hero flags, and multiple objectives, there is a reason the title is called "Commander" and not "Gladiator" (as we previously mentioned.)

Can you concentrate enough to run four builds at once? (or at least four characters?) Can you balance multiple objectives and skirmishes at the same time? If this isn't something that appeals to you, don't play it, because that _is_ what the HvH arena is about.

Maybe I can blame the military and say such things are just apart about my thought process so I don't see why its a "bad thing." I don't know. I see the arena for what it is, and I enjoy it.

It _is_ a game of tactics, despite the fact many want to cheapen it by calling it "running." Before you even enter a match, you have to pick a team.

Now, for many, the meta seems to be a defensive Rit, an Assassin, A monk and either another monk or a Necro. The player will cap his shrines and then set up camp at the Center shrine and try to lure his opponent into a fight which his holding build will usually triumph.

Maybe that's why people are dismissing it so easily, I don't know. Personally, I look at it as a series of objectives and skirmishes, and I refuse to get into large battles unless I can easily win.

I run two Heroes with builds that work easily for the AI and are able to survive independently. That means (as much as "regular" PvP looks down on it) a Touch Ranger and a Mending Whammo. They do what I need them to do: mobile builds that can survive most 1v1 skirmishes. They are my shrine-cappers, so they need to be able to do that.

Then I play an Assassin with a ZB Prot Monk AI. The goal of those two is to actively seek out skirmishes. My Toucher and Whammo can survive on their own. So if the opponent sends out one (or better yet two) heroes after one of them, that leaves his "main" force diminished (read: Divide and Conquer), at which point I move in with my Assassin and Monk.

The Monk is mostly a psychological element. Lots of people believe the key to taking down a group is to drop the monk first. So they go after the ZB Prot (with channeling), which as long as it is not TOO overwhelmed, can keep itself going. Meanwhile, my Assassin (NOT an SP/BoA) is dropping stragglers left and right.

If I happen to catch a stray with my Assassin, well, it does the job the profession was created for too.

So, I have a multitude of shrines capped AND I'm getting kills. It usually proves effective. Granted some builds take me down hard, or at least give me a headache, but let's face it, that's the point of Guild Wars. Any build has its Achilles Heel.

The fault I see many doing is trying to build a team that synergies well together, but falls apart quickly if it has to split up. An example of that would be the three Searing Flames eles with a Prot monk. Powerful, yes, but weak once apart.

The idea is to create a team that is mobile, independent AND capable of working cohesively together. Do that and you won't see the "running" or "lack of tactics."

TurinPT · Apr 09, 2007, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafia cyborg

also shrines seem too distant one to the other......and they fly off the radar ( u cant see them on minimap)....i wanted to send an hero to a chokepoint to slow down the runner .....but the chokepoint was out of my minimap so i couldnt flag him there.

zoom out the minimap with the mousewheel, like this:

and far away shrines always show up on the border of the radar, so you can easily send heros there.

The Ernada · Apr 09, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

I dont dispute that it does take tactis and positioning. However, when the maps are the same with the same objectives then it just becomes that it's the same basic strategy and same basic builds (asassins + defensive heroes) being used over and over again.

It no longer becomes strategy and tactics anymore, it then becomes routine. Changing up objectives in different maps is the real way to test your skills. Just look at how everyone has the same builds and same tactics in HvH right now. Not really skill is it?

More Outrage · Apr 09, 2007, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Tried it, thought it was gonna be like one of those zaishen challenge things, seems so did the other guy, lol. Was 9-4 up and thinking this is easy thanks to all the zaishen training, then noticed after dying I had no dp and got bored. Fortunatley it was an unrated battle so no gain or loss and after reading this thread I see no point in doing it again, YAWN!

mafia cyborg · Apr 09, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

it no doubt requires skill and such.....it just aint fun.
also why play this GW hero battle when u can play wc3 ,w4k,starcraft etc.....in those games yes u can have full control of heroes , map control, etc etc....also the controls are x10 better (exp: u select a unit and move it....not flag!) and u can micro them good on screen....u can group units..etc
hero battles feels frustrating to play cos it tries to do somethin the game engine is not designed to do. the view from above should go as close to 90 degress as possible (instead it stops at 60-70 degrees) .....half of screen space is wasted......u should be able to control heroes on screen.....
trust me....try something like wc3......then try hero battles....and u'll understand why its no good.
basically u're tryin to play an RTS on an interface that fights with the RTS concept. maybe in gw2 they'll improve this......but as for now i would concentrate in makin the hero battles intuitive and fun.
i'd like to log onto GW and have a fight....make a good build....se if i score more kills than the opponent and leave it at that....not get frustrated tryin to play an RTS when i got some proper RTS on my computer.....which devastate hero battles in terms of depth and fun factor.

Series · Apr 09, 2007, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter

It comes down to playing the arena the way it is meant to be played, not expecting it to be "like something else."

It's not a game about "team vs team, direct combat." There is a reason we're given hero flags, and multiple objectives, there is a reason the title is called "Commander" and not "Gladiator" (as we previously mentioned.)

Can you concentrate enough to run four builds at once? (or at least four characters?) Can you balance multiple objectives and skirmishes at the same time? If this isn't something that appeals to you, don't play it, because that _is_ what the HvH arena is about.

Maybe I can blame the military and say such things are just apart about my thought process so I don't see why its a "bad thing." I don't know. I see the arena for what it is, and I enjoy it.

It _is_ a game of tactics, despite the fact many want to cheapen it by calling it "running." Before you even enter a match, you have to pick a team.

Now, for many, the meta seems to be a defensive Rit, an Assassin, A monk and either another monk or a Necro. The player will cap his shrines and then set up camp at the Center shrine and try to lure his opponent into a fight which his holding build will usually triumph.

Maybe that's why people are dismissing it so easily, I don't know. Personally, I look at it as a series of objectives and skirmishes, and I refuse to get into large battles unless I can easily win.

I run two Heroes with builds that work easily for the AI and are able to survive independently. That means (as much as "regular" PvP looks down on it) a Touch Ranger and a Mending Whammo. They do what I need them to do: mobile builds that can survive most 1v1 skirmishes. They are my shrine-cappers, so they need to be able to do that.

Then I play an Assassin with a ZB Prot Monk AI. The goal of those two is to actively seek out skirmishes. My Toucher and Whammo can survive on their own. So if the opponent sends out one (or better yet two) heroes after one of them, that leaves his "main" force diminished (read: Divide and Conquer), at which point I move in with my Assassin and Monk.

The Monk is mostly a psychological element. Lots of people believe the key to taking down a group is to drop the monk first. So they go after the ZB Prot (with channeling), which as long as it is not TOO overwhelmed, can keep itself going. Meanwhile, my Assassin (NOT an SP/BoA) is dropping stragglers left and right.

If I happen to catch a stray with my Assassin, well, it does the job the profession was created for too.

So, I have a multitude of shrines capped AND I'm getting kills. It usually proves effective. Granted some builds take me down hard, or at least give me a headache, but let's face it, that's the point of Guild Wars. Any build has its Achilles Heel.

The fault I see many doing is trying to build a team that synergies well together, but falls apart quickly if it has to split up. An example of that would be the three Searing Flames eles with a Prot monk. Powerful, yes, but weak once apart.

The idea is to create a team that is mobile, independent AND capable of working cohesively together. Do that and you won't see the "running" or "lack of tactics."

I have to say that the man is right. Hero Battles are NOT your standard PvP. I used to love and be good at RTS games before Guild Wars came along. I like hero battles because it requires tactics, something normal Guild Wars play doesn't. Intense micromanagement and strategy. You can recover from your losses and still come out on top, with proper planning and execution- the execution of your strategy is very important. My only problem is the lame spirirt spam holding builds- They are just lame and overpowered.

Onarik Amrak · Apr 09, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Q, you're right on most points, but that's a sure fire way to getting a ban.

Kool Pajamas · Apr 09, 2007, 03:58 AM // 03:58

There is no doubt it takes a lot of skill to be the best at this, the problem is that the skill it takes is a boring way to play for me and it seems lots of others too.

I have now made it my objective to obtain the lowest rating possible XD

<---862 rating at the moment, rank 23,583

losing hero battles is more fun than winning

edit: also saying that no changes should be made because thats how it was supposed to be, is like saying HA shouldnt be changed because thats the way it was designed. But HA was changed and HvH should be changed.

The Ernada · Apr 09, 2007, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Haha cool rating, Pajamas. Q, You made some good points but take out the personal attacks.

Back on topic, I have been hovering around rank 300+ but I think it's time for me to give up on it. The sheer frustration of losing to clearly overpowered HB builds built to take advantage of the flawed HB mechanics isnt fun.

I especially hate that one map where assassins can easily port from the center shrine to the NPC shrine since they're right next to each other. How could they have overlooked that obvious flaw?

Ah well. My HB experimentation is over for now until it's no longer a cesspool. I'll never complain about HA or GvG again. Well...not as much.

Does-it-Matter · Apr 09, 2007, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

edit: also saying that no changes should be made because thats how it was supposed to be, is like saying HA shouldn't be changed because thats the way it was designed. But HA was changed and HvH should be changed.

Just to clear up this analogy so it doesn't sound like "It's not broke, but fix it anyway."

You're saying that although it is performing in the manner it was designed for, that original concept is where the problem lies, correct?

mafia cyborg · Apr 09, 2007, 05:39 AM // 05:39

hero battles should be like TA.
cos thats what ppl want....a way to fight in arenas with heroes.
Anet if u r so in love with this shrine crap .....at least let us bring heroes in TA!
give us a place to fight with heroes pls! maybe make 2 modes.....RTS one and Arena one. everyone happy that way.

savage vapor 33 · Apr 09, 2007, 05:49 AM // 05:49

It should be like King of the Hill. That might promote holding builds, but atleast it will cause people to be more creative. Rather than making each hero just a runner.

Bankai · Apr 09, 2007, 06:18 AM // 06:18

I found Hero battles quite amusing, but the only thing that destroys everything is Shadow prison and Spirits.

Kool Pajamas · Apr 09, 2007, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter

Just to clear up this analogy so it doesn't sound like "It's not broke, but fix it anyway."

You're saying that although it is performing in the manner it was designed for, that original concept is where the problem lies, correct?

Mmmm yea that sounds good

Bankai · Apr 09, 2007, 09:28 AM // 09:28

I disagree, I like the original concept.

linh · Apr 09, 2007, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Thank to Hero Battles so Random Arena is no longer dumbest and worst pvp in the game.

Onarik Amrak · Apr 09, 2007, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Hmmm, wouldn't continuous deliberate losing lower your rating so much that once you decide to play for real, you'll probably be smashing crap players into the dust?

ensoriki · Apr 09, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

I rather it be closer to AB

Get 70 points, you get points for capping but even more for killing like maybe 4 points a kill

Bryant Again · Apr 09, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

I'm still blown away that ANet are taking Hero Battles so seriously.

Solution to make Hero Battles more fun and more tactical:

1. Delete shrines.
2. Profit.

I was able to just use a BoA sin with Dash throughout all of my wins (7 in a row at one point). That is not skilled. The fact that I can get rewarded for that is disgusting.